Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. I Thess. 5:21

Thursday, February 18, 2010

Something Just Doesn't Add Up

This post is really a followup to the post Say What You Mean and Mean What You Say. I intend to go into some depth on a few items that I either glossed over or skipped altogether in that earlier post because I was trying to keep to one subject without wandering. I also want to make a note that some people might find some of the language in this post distasteful. I apologize in advance and actually suggest you just skip this post entirely and read this one instead. I'm only using the words that I've heard, and while that is not a defense for crassness, unfortunately we as a group have been dealing with some of the baser issues that men and women face today. If you do find anything in this post offensive, I remind you, you have been warned.

There has been some interesting things that people have said or done in regards to how Bro. Steve Farmer is now teaching dress standards, especially in when it concerns women wearing pants. The problem with what I've heard though is that people are employing very weak logic or none at all when making their arguments. Here are a couple of examples.

I recently heard that a lot of time and research went into finding a story in a very old book where an experiment was performed to determine whether or not it's sinful for women to wear pants. In this experiment women were paraded in front of a group of men twice, one time wearing skirts or dresses and the other time wearing pants. The viewers were then asked to identify what drew their attention each time. When the women were wearing skirts, the men said they were drawn to their beautiful faces, but when the women were wearing pants, the men said their attention was drawn to their crotches. The conclusion derived from this experiment is that women should not wear pants because doing so draws attention to their crotches and that would be a sin. This experiment was used as an argument to establish that Bro. Farmer was out of order based on how he is teaching standards.

When I heard that this story was actually used to make an argument it actually made me laugh out loud. I ask myself how this experiment could possibly apply in today's world unless we were to live a completely cloistered life. Just about everywhere I go, with the exception of church, I see women wearing pants all the time. I understand that in the past when women wearing pants was not mainstream there could have been a considerable shock factor influencing these men in this experiment, however I question whether or not these same men today would still be drawn to women's crotches whenever they see a woman wearing pants. Additionally, to use this story against the Nashville assembly seems to imply that the only women that anyone in our group would ever encounter wearing pants would be those under the direct influence of Steve Farmer and just how silly is that?

To insinuate that the women in this experiment are guilty of some sin and not the men is ludicrous. It is however a very common male psychological pattern to blame women for their faults. How is this different from the man who is physically abusive to his wife and blames his abuse on her or another man who blames the women in his life for the poor choices that he's made and is incapable of manning up and taking the responsibility for his own actions? What is happening in each of these cases is that the man is seeking justification for his actions by blaming someone else; he's not really being a man. Is there really any difference in these examples and the experiment referenced above? If there is, please point it out because I fail to see it.

I've also heard recently that there are some ministers who have been alluding without quite saying it in so many words that women who wear pants are lesbians, cross-dressers or transvestites. I won't say who because I have not actually heard this directly from them yet myself, but still I've heard this too often from too many sources for me to ignore it completely (Matt 18:16). The logic behind this statement is that if a woman dresses in a "man's garment" that could only signify that that woman is trying to take over the role of a man, and that a sexual attraction to other women must be the reason behind it. If I try really really hard I can see the progression of this logic, but it certainly overlooks a lot of simple truths.

First of all, stating that pants are exclusively a male garment is just no longer true. The average woman today wears pants much more than they do skirts, and pants have become every bit as much a female garment as they are a male garment. Just look at the women's department in any clothing store and you will see that this is true. While it is true that in the past trousers were designed as an article of clothing for men, ever since the 70's pants have become a normal article of clothing for women. Decades earlier some women did wear men's pants when they had to do a job where a skirt just would not be appropriate and because there just weren't women's pants available, but over the past forty or more years, women's pants have been made differently from men's pants and there is a clear distinction between the two. A man trying to wear pants made for a woman would not look right and vice versa.

If someone really believes that women who wear pants are lesbians, cross-dressers or transvestites, then that logic would also imply that person also believes that the vast majority of American women today are lesbians, cross-dressers or transvestites. Following this logic, you could derive that Scottish men who wear a kilt are gay, cross-dressers or transvestites as well because kilts are merely a different name for a skirt, which of course is a female garment. I even know of a couple who when they were first married used to share sweaters on occasion. Would that make them bisexual?

What is happening here is someone is judging women based on their own view of what society should be and not taking anything else into account. To illustrate what I'm saying here, some of the leading brethren have stated that they wouldn't impose Western dress ideals on people in a foreign field when those ideals clashed with local culture as long as the clothing that was worn remained modest. Hence it would not be a sin for women to wear pants in Asia because it is culturally acceptable there, though it would still remain a sin for women in North America to wear them. Other leading brethren disagree with this completely and see the dress standard as a teaching that should be universal. What neither group seems to be willing to accept is that what is and is not culturally acceptable is based on society and society here in North America has been changing. What we are told instead is that we should just discount our own society because the world is sinful. We seem to have forgotten that many of the "dress standards" in our group are merely derivatives of 1950's Mid-Western American social norms or in other words what was considered modest half a century ago and not derived directly from the Bible. If this were not so, we would all be wearing the same clothing worn by our first century brothers and sisters, tunics (undergarments) and mantles (essentially robes). How it really seems to me is that there are some of the leading brethren who think they are able to dictate culture and others who think something is sinful or not based on where you are. Both viewpoints are flaky in my mind.

Making a blanket statement that alludes that every woman wearing pants must be a lesbian, cross-dresser or a transvestite stretches the truth way past it's breaking point. Wouldn't this train of logic also imply that all women wearing skirts are straight? What about men? What article of clothing determines their sexual orientation? To me it would just seem simpler to let clothing be a matter of fashion, staying warm or just not being naked and let sexuality be a matter of sex (Gen 3:7).

The kernel of truth here is that women shouldn't try to be men and that men shouldn't try to be women and that includes how they dress. This is what's really at the heart of the scripture Deut. 22:5. Let me just say this too, if you see no difference at all between a real female transvestite who is trying to impersonate a man and a woman who is wearing a pair of slacks, I don't trust your judgment.

I also want to address the way that the Nashville church is being disfellowshipped because it has me greatly disturbed. Although I don't believe this to be the case, for the sake of argument let's assume that Bro. Farmer is completely wrong in how he is teaching modesty in his church. Given that, is disfellowshipping the church really a Biblically based, Christian way to handle the problem?

I'm reminded of the story of the shepherd who lost a sheep (Luke 15:4-7) and the story of the woman who lost a coin (Luke 15:8-10). In these stories the protagonist goes after what was lost. The shepherd didn't say, "Well, I've still got ninety-nine sheep, too bad about that other one. I'll just cut my losses and move on". The woman didn't say, "Well, I still have nine coins and I didn't really need that other one anyway, oh well". No, instead both of these people valued these things and diligently went after them. Right after these stories Jesus tells the story of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32), but nowhere in the story did the father kick the younger son out of his house, or did my translation miss something? One of the restrictions that is being imposed by the "leading brethren" means that if a pastor from another assembly was genuinely concerned about Bro. Farmer and the Nashville assembly and wanted to visit them and attempt to influence them to change with the same spirit evidenced in these stories, they can't without clearing it with the "leading brethren" first. Discarding the Nashville assembly this way shows not only a lack of value and love placed on that church and the people in it, in my opinion it creates a precedent of how to handle other churches that don't quite fall in line with what the "leading brethren" lay down. I wonder who will be next.

On a side note, I find it more than just slightly ironic that Jesus told these stories in response to the Scribes and Pharisees murmuring about Him receiving and fellowshipping publicans and sinners, and another of the accusations being leveled at Bro. Farmer is that he refuses to be exclusive enough in whom he chooses to fellowship (Mark 2:16).

Now I know that I Cor. 5:1-6 was being used when making the decision to disfellowship Nashville but I question the use of this scripture though because it refers to the sexual immorality of an individual and the issues that were stated as the reasons for "withdrawing" concern the doctrinal stance of an entire assembly. This just does not apply to the situation that is at hand and to say that it does implies that you are saying that preaching modesty is sexually immoral. More importantly if we use this scripture in regards to doctrinal differences, then we also imply that the assemblies in our group share a doctrinal cohesiveness that just doesn't exist. How else could a doctrinal issue separate a church from the fellowship unless there exists a doctrinal unity which that separated church violated?

I also want to talk about something that shouldn't need to be voiced but obviously does. I've heard from some of my friends in the Nashville church that there are many people with whom they've been friends for a long time who now all of a sudden won't even speak to them anymore. Does anyone out there really believe that these people whom we have known for years just changed overnight some time back in 2009 or perhaps January of this year and are no longer the same people that they were the entire time we've known them? To those who have drank the kool-aid and decided that the Nashville church and everyone in it have become some kind of pariah, I suggest that you read 1 Cor. 13:4-8 very carefully and pray long and hard about it.

The truth about what is going on with Nashville and the people there is that there is a campaign being promoted that diminishes the value of who they are. Every time we say or think "they aren't like us any more", what we are doing is dehumanizing them. What we are saying and what you are saying if you are buying into the party line is that we are better than they are. There's just way too much of this "better than them" mentality in our group and it needs to stop. If we were to just sit down and take a look at the people who are being effected right now, we'd see just how alike we are, not how different. I hear the cry of people who have been slandered ringing in my heart and I ask myself why it is we do this (Rom 3:7-9). Who are we anyway to set ourselves up as the standard against whom everyone should be judged anyway? Who among us qualifies (Rom 3:10)? Who among us has the right (John 8:7)?

Now I know that this post and my last one are going to rock the boat, but on occasion the boat needs to be rocked. And even if no one else will stand up and speak the truth, that will not deter me. An injustice has been done, and as Edmund Burke said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I for one will not just sit and do nothing.

10 comments:

  1. Shame on you. Heretic. Where is John Calvin when we need him?!

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  2. http://dyalpaul.blogspot.com/2010/02/heretics-among-us.html

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  3. I think I'm going to leave these comments up for the time being. However I want to point out that this is not Bro. Dyal posting them and instead someone who is trying to make Bro. Dyal look bad by impersonating him.

    Bro. Dyal is well known for his prolific blog which can be viewed at: http://paulbdyal.blogspot.com/ (note the different addresses). If you are going to have a problem with him, I suggest that you have a problem with what he actually said and not what someone who is just trying to stir up trouble says for him.

    Whoever you are, congratulations on helping me make the point I was trying to make in this post about knowing the difference between knowing what's real and an impostor though. Good job with that. :)

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  4. It's good to see that someone is coming forward to bring these points to the open that have been so disturbing for many. I do not have the writing skills to be able to present it as you have but I'm glad God put it on your heart. It needs to be said.

    One statement you made needed some clarification for me though. When you said, "If no one else will stand up and speak the truth that will not deter me." Deterred from what? I know you won't be deterred from serving the Lord. I've known you all my life, and I know you are sincere and make great effort for honesty. But I do have a serious problem if no one else in this group will stand up and speak the truth.

    I, as well as many others were shocked and disappointed, not so much at the words of the men speaking in Brownsville, I was expecting that to happen, but at the SILENCE of the brothers sitting and listening, not standing up for the Word of God.

    I was told by one of our "leading" ministers that the brothers were in fear to speak up. This may not have been the case with everyone. If not fear, then what? I am in serious contemplation of leadership that is too afraid to defend the Word of God among their peers.

    I know God loves this group of people. I have developed many friendships over the past 40 years of my life. I love these people. I don't want to seek anything else. However, we have wandered so far from the original vision of Bro. Sowders. There has been so much damage. I'm praying for the ministry and the saints. There are so many people hurting, including me, as you can see. I only hope this is a process that will lead us into a thinking and living that is more pleasing to Him. I pray that those who are being dealt with to stand up in opposition to what is happeing will recieve boldness from His Spirit at the appointed time.

    Marcie

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  5. Marcie, the simple answer of what I meant was that even if no one else is bold enough to speak the truth, I will. Much in the spirit of the song, "I Have Decided to Follow Jesus", I have decided to speak out about what I believe is right regardless if anyone else will. I didn't mean anything necessarily ground shaking with that statement though.

    I don't hold anyone's silence at this point against them however. Some are genuinely afraid to speak, and that doesn't bother me so much, though remember that this fear is extrinsic to God (2 Tim 1:7). There also remain some who are genuinely undecided or uninformed. I would rather assume this of each and every person who is involved rather than assume that they are through their silence agreeing with everything that is going on. I know that this isn't always the easiest thing to hear, but there is always a second side to every story. Unless I know all the facts surrounding a particular person, how can I judge them? More to the point, why would I want to?

    Instead, I intend to show loving kindness to everyone involved, on both sides of this any any issue, and instead of attacking people, I will condemn an action. Venom on my part or anyone's can only worsen the situation, not improve it (Prov 15:1).

    But to you and the hurt that you've experienced I say this. Be of good heart, for even if we have come to the point that the way God is working with us is through our antagonism, at least I can say that God is still working with us. He is in control of all this and Marcie, He knows the intimate details of what we all are experiencing and who we are, even something as inconsequential as the number of hairs on your head (Luke 12:7). I believe the words:

    And the path that be my portion,
    May be through the flame or flood,
    But His presence goes before me,
    And I'm covered with His blood.

    When these things threaten to overwhelm you or any of you reading this, praise God anyway. Call out on the name of Jesus and He will be there.

    "In the good times, praise His name, In the bad times, still the same. In everything give the King of Kings all the praise."

    I'm going to stop here because I don't want to get too personal, but you know how you can reach me. I heard a great quote though, and I thought it might apply to what some of us are feeling.

    "It is in the quiet crucible of your personal private sufferings that your noblest dreams are born and God's greatest gifts are given in compensation for what you've been though." - Wintley Phipps

    "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared to the glory that shall be revealed in us." Romans 8:18

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  6. Just to note about the brownsville mtg. There were actually a couple of men who tried to speak on Wednesday. They were effectively ignored and told that a "knot" would be tied for later discussion. All day Thursday was tied up with "business". I know that at least one of the men that tried to speak on Wednesday had to leave early Friday and it may be that the other did too, I do not know. Thursday night was an open service.

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  7. I too, was aware that at least one man tried to speak at this meeting and it may have been on the minds of several others to speak too. I do not want to pass judgement without knowing "all sides" and understanding the circumstances. However, my point at bringing up the issue of no one standing up to defend the Word of God is that it is perplexing. I'm sure there are many reasons no one spoke up and it could be, as you mentioned, that some are undecided or that they may be misinformed. They may have been in fear as I mentioned was explained to me. There was so much going on in the minds of the men that were there and I'm sure we cannot presume to give a blanket answer. However, it remains that no one stood up. Hopefully, those that were trying to stand can speak at the next meeting.

    I have to say, on a sidenote, I am very thankful that we have the technology today vs. many years ago when meetings were held and decisions were made and many didn't understand what had happened until years later. My point is this, we can be informed if we want to be these days. There is a better opportunity for accountability.

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  8. Alright, I have been burning to comment on this issue and I believe this to be a good place to do so.

    Like many, I have been in this Body my entire life. I am quite open-minded and since I grew up with Bro. Patton's teachings being the predominant source from which I learned how to observe, discern and think about things, I credit his ministry's influence on my heart and mind as being one of sensibility, charity, and integrity for those are characteristics I value still. That being said, I am deeply grieved by what I see taking place in our midst. I am astonished at the visceral reaction toward Bro. Farmer displayed by some of the ministers and can only conclude that such a reaction is born of fear.

    To wear or not to wear pants really is not the question, is it? I have been prayerfully examining the topic of dress for myself (at 41!!!) for some time now. My conclusions are interesting, but I won't share them here (although at some point they might do some good.....). What is stunning to me, however, is the adamant refusal to treat this disagreement (about a tradition) with as much consideration as I've witnessed our ministry handle what would seem to me to be much more profound doctrinal disputes. "Such as...?" you ask? Well, such as whether or not there is indeed an individual we refer to as "the big Daddy Devil" and/or his minions (or perhaps there are minions w/o a Daddy?), or whether or not we should follow Jesus' commandment with regards to taking communion, or....., you get the idea.

    If the ministry in times past have taken hours and hours and hours to discuss, then to "put on the shelf" for an unguessable number of years these more pivotal doctrinal matters, then why, may I ask, are they not similarly ready to use the "threshing floor" approach to the traditions of dress? Why not discuss it - using scripture - with an open mind and heart of love for one another? After all, I was brought up to understand that that particular element (the threshing floor) of our ministry was one of the aspects that set this Body apart from "organized" religion where you didn't. have. the. freedom. to. disagree. with. their. leadership.

    You might be wondering what 'fear' I was referring to earlier. I believe it is the fear of setting people free to mature in Christ as He leads them. If a woman wants to wear pants, is she any more saved that she doesn't wear them due to the threat of disassociation by her church? Is she more saved if it's not in her heart to do so? Oh boy, here's where we get the sermon about obedience being better than sacrifice, but we know of some ministers that would have you to obey them in regards to what you can wear in your own bedroom, what kind of car you should buy or whether or not you can take your family on vacation.... Nothing makes me more angry or is more despicable than an egotistical, megolomaniac in the pulpit, abusing God's people!!

    Now, don't get me wrong, I know leadership and authority is important in the church but there's a question that has been burning on my heart for the past 15 years regarding our approach to teaching the dress standard and that question is this: If a standard is not followed, is that individual's salvation jeopardized?

    cont'd in the next comment.....

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  9. See, the United Pentecostal Church - being the precedent-setting Holy Ghost movement regarding the standards - believes that should a woman cut her hair, wear makeup, pierce her ears, or wear pants she is going to hell (the "going to hell" also used to include having a TV in your home but I think that has become more flexible in past years as pastors have realized the opportunity to be seen...). They use fear of hell to keep people dressing in standard uniform (there are lots of good aspects to a uniform - I'm not knocking it, really, but that's a subject for later expansion!) But what weapon have we to keep the saints in line with the separating, identifying uniform that we are asked to wear? Well, it's still fear. Fear of what is now unfolding before us: excommmmmm....umm....disfellowsh....uhhhh....withdrawal! That's it! We're afraid of the "withdrawal" of those we care about, those who are our community and our fellowship (lots of sociological factors here....)!

    In conclusion I ask the following: as the Body of Christ, what are to be our primary identifying characteristics - A uniform? A certain style of music? A certain color we paint our church(es)? The car we drive? I digress into a bit of silliness so let me end by reiterating yet again.....

    To wear pants or not to wear pants? That is not the true question, is it?

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  10. I want to clarify a couple of my statements in my reply above.

    In the paragraph that begins "I don't hold anyone's silence at this point against them..." the "anyone" that I'm referring to is the laity in our group. I don't know the individual situations that exist in every specific church, but I know that there are some controlling ministers out there, and what I mean to say is that spirit of fear that has been meted out on these people is not from God, and when a minister uses fear with the children of God, they are out of order. How am I to know if a layperson is in a situation like this or not? Hence, I don't have a problem necessarily with the laity if they fear to come forward.

    Also, I want to clarify that in no way was I insinuating that Marcie was being venomous. To see an example of that, look at the first two comments in this list. Because I was addressing her in the comment, it looks like I was directing that to her. On the contrary, there are others who deserve that criticism than Marcie ever will.

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